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Conversations and Change (Transcript)
CCOHS YouTube video transcript
Speaker 1
Welcome, and thank you for joining us as we discuss Conversations and Change. The third in a four-part series of Going Beyond the Assessment for Workplace Mental Health. Now, a few words about CCOHS. We are Canada's national resource for the advancement of workplace health and safety. For more than 40 years, CCOHS has promoted the physical and psychological health, safety, and total well-being of workers.
My name is Lin Yu and I am a health and safety specialist at CCOHS and a Canadian Mental Health Association's certified psychological health and safety advisor. And I would like to introduce to you Emma Ashurst, who is joining me in conversation today. Welcome, Emma. Would you like to say a few words to introduce yourself to our participants?
Speaker 2
Hi Lin, thank you for having me on. I'm so happy to be joining you today. I have the great pleasure of working with Lin, and I am also a health and safety specialist by trade. And, at the centre, I'm the manager of the health and safety technical team.
Speaker 1
Thank you. Emma. So, without further ado, let's dive into our conversation today. So first let's start with a quick recap of the session one and session two in this four-part series.
So, in our event one we talked about the four quadrants of a healthy workplace. And one of these quadrants is supporting the psychosocial aspect of work. And this meant paying attention to the organizational culture and how work is organized.
In our second session we talked about how to identify psychosocial factors, hazards and risks, and how to take action to support your workplace. To summarize, employers have a duty to protect worker health and safety, including protecting against workplace factors that can negatively impact mental health. We do have to keep in mind that employers have to balance this duty with fulfilling business and operational requirements.
Nonetheless, it's very important to ensure workers are healthy and able to perform their duties to the best of their abilities. So, our presentation today is going to be more of a conversation rather than a presentation. But we hope that everyone will still be able to gain helpful tips to bring back to their workplace.
So, let's start. The ultimate goal of building a healthy workplace is to make sure that we consider the people effect in every aspect of how our business is done to prevent psychosocial hazards. And starting the conversation is such an important first step toward this goal. To facilitate these conversations, we need to create an environment where everyone feels safe to speak up about challenging topics, for example, speaking up when we need clarification or when we are concerned about something.
Maybe when we've made a mistake or when we need help.
Speaker 2
Absolutely, and it really is that ability for us to have those safe conversations where we have open minds, and our shoulders are down and we feel safe. And that really is a key indicator for a healthy workplace and a psychologically safe workplace.
Speaker 1
Essentially, the key message that we are trying to get at is that the foundation of creating and sustaining a healthy work environment comes from consistently and continuously working to foster trust and build relationships, to help people feel safe and supported to have these conversations. So, Emma, let's start with some of our own experiences in terms of psychological health and safety.
Would you mind starting off for us?
Speaker 2
No problem. Yeah, as Lin said, that trust piece is huge. And it sounds like everyone on the call has a fairly strong understanding of some of the psychological factors and things like that. So, we're going to reference those as we talk through this. So, my first example, and this isn’t airing dirty laundry by any means, but my example centres around clear leadership and expectations and organizational culture.
So, one of my first jobs, and it's a simple example, but one of my first jobs when I was young, there were some mixed messages around our start times. And when we were to start answering the phone for answering client phone calls, and it would seem like we would get in trouble if we were to pick up the phone before our start time, and the office opened at eight.
So, if the phone rang before eight and we picked up, we would get in trouble. But on the flipside, the employer would also call in before eight to check to see that we were there and we were working, and if we didn't pick up, we would get in trouble.
So, it wasn't a great feeling, I'm not going to lie. And it definitely led to some of that self-doubt that you start playing into yourself and you almost start like, “What am I doing wrong? We're not getting this.” So again, a very simple example, but those clear expectations of what is expected with something as simple as answering the phone in a situation like that has always stuck with me.
And it's carried with me as I became a manager and a leader, to make sure that I'm always clear and to let people know what is expected, and to do my best to make sure people know that because I know what the impact can be when it isn't clear in your organization. So that's one example that's always stuck with me.
What about you, Lin? What’s stuck with you?
Speaker 1
Thank you, Emma. Similarly, at the beginning of my working life, I had worked in a customer-facing role, and I remember experiencing interactions where there was disrespectful behaviour, bordering on harassment and bullying. And I remember going to my supervisor at the time to let them know that this is happening and essentially to ask for support – to ask for backup.
And what I received was, “This is part of your job to take this.”
Speaker 2
Abuse, almost.
Speaker 1
Yes, that was the word that was coming to my mind, thank you. And without any other guidance or mentorship on how to deal with these situations, so, in that respect, there is a clear lack of support for civility and respect in these customer interactions. I felt like there was insufficient psychological and social support for myself from my superior at this point.
But I was very lucky in this job because I was working with a group of wonderful people who rallied together whenever one of us had a negative interaction. We would help each other, even debrief, and talk about it and share strategies about how we've learned to de-escalate these situations or to put up clear boundaries of what we are, you know, willing to put up with as customer service employees.
And that really helped me to develop the competencies to meet the demands of such a customer-facing role. And that experience really showed me that these three psychosocial factors, the civility and respect, and psychological and social support, and psychological competency and demands, play such a big part of how we experience mental health at work.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And not feeling supported by your boss is awful – it's a terrible feeling. But having amazing coworkers really does make or break it. And I have one more example, and I'm keeping an eye on the time as well because I know we've got other stuff to talk about, but I just want to throw it in because it illustrates the importance of the team bit.
So, I worked in a restaurant through university. Great restaurant. Loved it. Still go back and eat there. And the owner was awesome. Like, he totally trusted all of us. And again, it's a restaurant. And after talking to some of my other friends who have worked in the industry, we had it pretty good.
And what it came down to was the trust that he had in all of us. He trusted our critical thinking and our judgment. So, if we had a table that was celebrating something or, he trusted us to use our judgment to comp something. So, if we wanted to do a dessert, if we wanted to do a glass of wine or coffees or whatever, just those little gestures go a long way, as you know, in a dining experience.
I did just get the nudge. I'll wrap up my story super quick. But it comes down to that support that you have and that trust from your employer can make all the difference in the world in a psychologically safe environment because it makes you feel safe. It gives you an investment in the workplace and, in turn, they know that you're going to look after the workplace, which is good for their business.
So, as you said earlier, looking after our people truly is the fundamental piece of all of this – look after your people. Truly sorry. Okay. Let's keep going.
Speaker 1
Thank you, Emma. Okay, so next let's talk a little bit about what leaders and workers can do, because it is true that everyone plays a part in creating a healthy and safe work environment, right? So, take the psychosocial factor as an example, Emma, what do you think leaders can do to ensure there is clear leadership and expectations?
Speaker 2
I'm going to keep this one tight. So, as I illustrated in my example, clear leadership can make all the difference in the world. So, when you're working with your teams, provide clear instructions, make sure that they have the tools that they need to do the job, help them prioritize.
Often, as a leader or manager, you have a higher purview of the organization, so you know how that task fits into the bigger picture. So, you can also help them with scale and effort of what is needed for the activity, and clearly communicate what those expectations are. Deadlines, or deliverable dates, pardon me, any known possible things to watch out for as you're navigating the work. So again, that communication piece is key.
Speaker 1
Definitely, Emma. And on the other side of that communication, as workers, if we don't understand something or if there's something that's not clear about what we're being asked to do, it's also important for us to ask for clarification, right? Get that clarification up front so that we can save a lot of time and effort, you know, later on.
And, it's great. Thank you for talking about the fact that leaders have a more broad overview of everything, not just what this worker is doing, but what the where the organization is going and what the team is doing overall. On the worker side, we have the best knowledge of how we work, what we have on our plate, and how much time we need, what resources we need.
So, what we can do to help is determine what we need and then ask for them, whether that's additional help or support or resources. And workers should also take onus on ourselves to be aware of which tasks are the most important or which are the most urgent. Now, when we're starting a new role, we might not be as familiar with that, but as we keep going, we'll be more and more familiar.
And again, if we don't know, ask. It's all about that communication. Right?
Speaker 2
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1
So, let's talk about balance. What can leaders do to support a healthy work-life balance?
Speaker 2
Balance should be the expectation upfront. And, so, everyone should know that that is what the organization is aiming for is having a healthy work-life balance. And then that becomes part of the way that we work. So, when you're doing a project plan, you're making sure you have sufficient time, money, resources, to do the job properly. And making sure that it's understood that it's expected that you take your lunch break, you take your paid break, you take your vacation, you do take those.
And in a time where a lot of people are actually living where they work, I'm at home right now, I know Lin's at her house right now, and that line has become even more blurred. So even more important for managers to model the behaviour, to sign off at the end of the night, to signal to their teams, OK, good night everybody. You know, see you in the morning. And that those little things become even more important.
Speaker 1
And in a time where a lot of people are actually living where they work, I'm at home right now, I know Lin's at her house right now, and that line has become even more blurred. So even more important for managers to model the behaviour, to sign off at the end of the night, to signal to their teams, OK, good night everybody. You know, see you in the morning. And that those little things become even more important.
For example, if we have concerns when shift times or overtimes are being scheduled, we can bring them up and try to be an active part of coming up with a solution of how to make sure that you still have a balance between your responsibilities at work and responsibilities outside of work.
Speaker 2
I was just going to say again, kind of that safety principle of the whole internal responsibility system, we all have a role to play, but as we go through this, I want to also just say none of this is going to be possible unless there's a safe environment for it, for the worker to speak up.
So, I just want to, you know, say to the audience that we get that. We're talking in a very idealistic situation, and recognize that this isn't always the case, but we should all be striving for excellence here, and we should all be striving to have these types of organizations. So, I'll just leave that there, and then we can talk about the other couple of factors.
Speaker 1
Yes. Well said. Thank you. What about workload management? What can leaders do here?
Speaker 2
The one misconception I think with this, and it's something that I when I first started being a manager, I was really worried that people would think I was a micromanager because I'm constantly asking everybody, “So what are you working on? How are you doing? What have you got on your plate?” But it truly came from a good place, because the only way I could balance workload is if I asked what people were doing.
So, I had to very overtly declare my intention, knowing that the potential impact might have been, “She's a micromanager,” overcome all of that and say, “No, no, no, guys, this is why I'm asking”. And then show up and be consistent with that so they could see, “OK, well, that's what she's asking.”
So that's the one thing a manager can do is get over the idea of asking about the status of work. You're not being a micromanager. You're being a compassionate, supportive manager or leader, and that's why you're asking. And if you let your team know why, and prove it, then that becomes a little bit easier as well. So, the only way you can balance and have balance and work safely is if you know what's going on in your team. And you can only do that if you build connections.
Speaker 1
Definitely.
Speaker 2
I'm trying not to pay attention too much to the comments but thank you for all the thumbs up. It really is nice. But yes, you check on, you don’t check in.
Speaker 1
And I really appreciate these opportunities to check in with you because it gives me, as a worker, an opportunity to participate in the planning of my work so that if there is concern about workload demands or balancing workload, then I'm able to bring it up and bring forward solutions for discussion, right? It's one it's again, it's about that communication piece and keeping that channel of communication open and having regular chances to communicate.
And I find it also helpful, as a worker, that if I'm finding my workload is unmanageable, to seek guidance not only from my leaders but also from my peers, you know. They might be doing similar work to what I'm doing, and they might have developed strategies that I can leverage or borrow to use in my own work life and to develop these skills and resiliency to be able to manage or to balance my workload.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
And what about recognition and reward? What can we do there?
Speaker 2
This is an interesting one, because recognition and reward is a little bit of a personal thing, right? Everyone likes to be recognized differently. Everyone likes a different reward. Lin and I were actually talking yesterday, and for those who may be familiar with the idea of the love languages, it's kind of like that in the workplace.
What's your workplace feedback recognition language.? And, as a leader, you need to get to know your team. So, the only way you can properly recognize and reward your team is if you know them. So, take time to get to know them. And I know that it might be different, some people might not want the public accolades, some people really want the public accolades. And as a leader know that, you know, it does look differently. So, try and get to know them and be able to do that for them. Because it's important. Because when you feel good, then, you know, you want to keep performing. You want to keep working and delivering and supporting others.
But, very much, we should be celebrating our success.
Speaker 1
For sure. And on the worker’s side, we if we need some type of feedback or regular feedback in order to support our own success, ask for it. Because more often than not, our leaders are more than willing to give us information about how we're doing, right? And we not only acknowledge when things are going well with ourselves but acknowledge the success of our peers as well. And that goes to boost the overall morale of our team or our organization.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
What about civility and respect?
Speaker 2
I'm sorry. And, often, reward doesn't always mean monetary. Just keep that in mind, right?
OK, civility and respect. I feel like you should kick this one off because your example for customer service, your personal experience, really highlights the importance of civility and respect.
Speaker 1
Definitely. As workers, we can make sure that in our interactions that we are displaying respectful behaviour and civil behaviour. And sometimes, if our organization has a code of conduct, we can reference that and check that with our own behaviours. And if we experience inappropriate behaviour or if we witness inappropriate behaviour, we can also follow our organization's procedures for how to respond to that, whether that means reporting to a specific person or reporting in an anonymous way.
Like in my example, in my experience, share strategy. It's worked well with our colleagues among our team so that not only is everyone able to share knowledge with each other, but we are elevating the capability of the entire team or the entire organization to not only be civil and be respectful, but to be able to call out disrespectful behaviour in a way that doesn't necessarily make the other person feel ashamed or it maintains the dignity of everyone that's involved.
Speaker 2
Yes, absolutely. And the one thing to keep in mind, as we've talked about before, civility and respect is the cornerstone of everything. You don't need to be best friends with everybody in the workplace. Having a few trusted best friends, absolutely, is an indicator of a healthy organization. And that is important. But being civil, being kind, being respectful is fundamental, and that should be built into project charters, team charters, team commitments, whatever we want to call them, health and safety policies, everything.
And, as you were saying Lin, calling out or speaking up or addressing needs to happen because we know that unchecked, uncivil or uncivil behaviours, can spiral into something more. It can spiral into potential bullying, harassment, at worst, violence. So, these things can escalate. It’s important to address them swiftly if you notice them in the organization.
And that, again, should be, just as with everything, set up as the expectation. So, these are our values. This is the way that we work. And this is what is expected of our organization.
Speaker 1
Yes, thank you, Emma. Now, our last one, what about organizational culture?
Speaker 2
Organizational culture is everything. It is the fabric of it all. It's how we work. It's how we interact with one another. And, as a leader, you have control over that. Like you have control over who you hire, who you bring in, how you set the policies, how you manage change – all of that – that's in your control.
So, you have a responsibility to make sure that th oerganizational culture is one that is safe, inclusive and healthy.
Speaker 1
For sure. And, from a worker’s side, we can take responsibility for our actions and our words so that we can foster trust, honesty and inclusivity through everything that we do and everything that we say.
Now, the psychosocial factors, the leader strategies and worker strategies that we discussed here is not an exhaustive list. There are other strategies that leaders and workers can use. And some of these tips that we talked about today can also benefit the other psychosocial factors not mentioned because of the interconnectedness between the psychosocial factors, making change in one factor, or targeting one factor could have a ripple effect benefiting the other factors as well. And like Emma mentioned before, many of these actions that we talked about here will only be possible and successful if everyone feels safe to communicate openly about concerns, questions and ideas.
So, it goes back to that need to create such a safe environment.
Speaker 2
And, in order to do that, you need to sometimes have some challenging conversations. And that's the last part of our session. Today, we want to leave you with a few ideas of how to have some of these conversations and how to lead them. I've had some courageous conversations, either receiving them or giving them, and they're not easy, I will full-on share they're not easy. They're tough.
I know when I've received some of them, it's so hard not to immediately, you know, take it personally and whatnot. But I know that the person who was speaking to me was coming from a place of good. And it only it only helped me in the end.
So, yeah, they're not easy. I'll just say that.
Speaker 1
No, definitely not. And everyone will benefit from having tools and skills to navigate these challenging conversations.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
And we're going to talk a little bit more about those two before we cap off our conversation today. It would be great if we can have more tools and skills to navigate these challenging conversations, to make sure that every single one is good and is beneficial and is good for everybody, right? So, Emma, could you please share with us a few tips on how to courageously approach these challenging types of conversations?
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So, I think the one thing to keep in mind right off the top, as a leader-manager, there is the whole concept of duty to inquire. But the only way that you can really do a duty to inquire is if you know your team and you know what actually is a change in behaviour, because that's usually what it would be.
So, you've got your team and you notice something that's not quite right or something different. And when you notice that, we should approach that with some curiosity and be like, “Hm, that's interesting. That isn't how that person normally shows up”. And we should have that conversation with them. And we treat that conversation with compassion, and we go from a place of no judgment and we just ask, “Hey, I've noticed” and if you could name the behaviour or the action that you might have seen, “You know, in this meeting you're a bit quiet or I noticed that you were a little more chatty,” like again, whatever that deviation from their normal is. And again, you're only going to know what normal is if you know your team. And so, you have this compassionate conversation, lean into it, and Lin is going to go through some tips of how to have that conversation. And then when that person hopefully shares, then you're going to treat that with a big ounce of courageousness.
We're now going to be courageous and we're going to lean into it, and now we're going to be there to support, and we're going to help guide and clear barriers or get them to other resources, whatever it might be, whatever that outcome is. And it could be an internal workplace thing. It could be an external thing.
If it's an external thing, it's treated with privacy and respect. And, you know, you kind of follow their lead of how much they want to share with you. And from a workplace point of view, if it's an internal work thing, again, listen openly and take notes and try and do your best to clear those barriers that they might be having.
And again, it's knowing your worker’s style, and your own style, and working together on that. And underlying all of that, the only way you can do this is if you know your team. And if you do this repeatedly, this is what will build your connections and your relationships – by showing up.
Speaker 1
For sure. Thank you, Emma. And when we're inquiring or when we are even receiving feedback, or when we are at the other side of an, “Are you OK?” conversation, if we're able to have this conversation without acting defensively which, in my own experience it's not easy to do because we have the fight-or-flight response, right? But if we're able to approach these conversations with an open mind, it can give us information to help us learn and grow and work better together. So, I think that's really important. And, as Emma said, I do have a few verbal and nonverbal tips for effective communication, such as giving the other person your complete attention.
So, putting away our digital devices, not checking our messages or emails, but letting the other person know that you are here to hear what they have to say and be a part of this conversation. We can also speak calmly and confidently and use calm and open body language as much as we can. And matching the other person's physical level can also really help.
If they are sitting, try to sit ourselves as well or make ourselves a little bit lower, at their level, or if they are standing, then we stand as well. And while we're talking about the importance of having these conversations, if we don't have time to have these conversations, then it's a moot point. So, organizations should try their best to make sure there is time available for managers and workers to have these conversations.
And it doesn't matter where we start it on these conversations, it all comes back to building those connections and feeling safe to speak.
Speaker 2
And it doesn't matter where we start it on these conversations, it all comes back to building those connections and feeling safe to speak.
You’d be surprised. It's not these big, grand gestures all the time. It's showing up. It's being consistent, Look for these little micro opportunities, and I promise you, you're there. They're there. You just need to be aware of them. And, you know, if you know one of your team members had a stressful presentation or a media call, I'm thinking about my team, and if they've got to do something that's a little bit outside of their comfort zone, check in with them. “How did it go?” Show up for them. Think about what feels good for you as well. How do you want someone to show up for you and then be that.
It doesn't have to be big, huge gestures all the time. We're human. Be human.
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Speaker 2
I'm sorry. Soapbox.
Speaker 1
It's all good. So, people want to do the right thing, generally. But it's OK not getting it right every time. Because we are human, like you said, be human. So, try our best to allow room for mistakes, both our own and others. But it's important to take ownership of our mistakes and aim for that continual improvement.
Now we need to grant ourselves grace that we are doing a hard thing, whether that's sharing something vulnerable with somebody or reaching out to somebody who might be experiencing a hard time. And, like Emma said earlier, these conversations are not always easy, but they are critical for building that supportive relationship. And they are necessary to protect the mental health at work.
And if the conversation doesn't go well, it's also important for the organization to make sure there are available supports for all the parties involved.
Now, Emma, would you like to end off our conversation?
Speaker 2
Just a quick recap of keeping this in mind when you're about to act with curiosity. We lean in, no judgment. And then with compassion and that encouragement for support. Be courageous. It is tough to have these conversations. And if we're able to do this, if we're able to move through this curiosity, compassion, courage step, you are going to foster those connections.
And then that will lead to the overall healthy workplace that Lin referenced in the beginning, and what we've talked about in the previous two webinars. So, ultimately, this is like that one little tiny piece of the overall healthy workplace.
Speaker 1
Yes. Thank you, Emma.
Speaker 2
Thank you. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Speaker 1
Thank you, Emma. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to have these conversations and our regular check-ins, really. And this is even better because we get to share with everyone. And thank you again, Emma. I am so honoured to speak with you and present this great information with you, and we look forward to seeing everyone soon.
